did a phone interview with businessman and author of Thou Shall Prosper: Ten Commandments for Making Money, Rabbi Daniel Lapin. After Dave became frieds of Rabbi Lapin he gave everyone in his company a copy of this book and it's now on his recommended reading list.It will take you some time to work through this book. It's full of wisdom. Growing up in a Christian environment, I have to tell you that it was refreshing to hear business and Biblical teaching from the perspective of the Jewish culture. I can't begin to share with you all of the nuggets I gained from this book but one thing the book does is breakdown the stereotypes associated with business and Jews and gives a clearer picture of how the Jewish culture by its nature and integrity breathes life into successful business.
It's a good read. The only thing I would have changed is the title. I have nothing against prospering, I just wouldn't have picked it up on my own with the King James feel in the title.
Rabbi Lapin also has a free weekly e-newsletter which I highly recommend checking out!
ReplyDeleteHis website is www.YouNeedARabbi.com
Thanks for the tip! I can't wait to tell my husband about it. We were just talking about a local Jewish deli and their business!
ReplyDeleteNo problem. Many of my friends are Dave-ites and I know they'd enjoy your blog. :)
ReplyDeleteHi Ben,
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to respectfully ask you -
I'm an old fashioned jewish girl that stumbled across your blog because you had a post about "thou shall prosper" and I was having a debate with some of my friends about it...
so you are a Christian and you stated you felt it broke down some jewish stereo types...??? Seriously? Do you really think so?
You stated "...one thing the book does is breakdown the stereotypes associated with business and Jews and gives a clearer picture of how the Jewish culture by its nature and integrity breathes life into successful business. "...we (myself and 3 other friends) would be interested in you expanding on this a bit? And just so you know, some Jewish people find Rabbi L controversial (not necessarily me, but some jews). Anyway, I think your opinion/insight would be interesting to us. The fact that he even wrote the book is upsetting to some because the whole premise can be viewed as playing into some serious stereotypes that have caused much pain to Jewish people.
Also, if you don't mind, I tried to read your profile and some of your posts but I'm unclear - could you clarify - do you work for a non-profit Christian music organization? What exactly is lampo?? I got a few different hits in google.
And one more thing (if you don't mind) - what type of Christian are you? Catholic? Baptist? I know you are a member of the church of Christ - is that just in general or did you purposely not post your Christian sect? Not that it matters so much - I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of who you are. I know you are in the South - TN - and wondering what type of Christian you happen to be. I'll tell you I consider myself a Conservative Jew, but I'm a member of a Reform temple...but my friends insist I'm Orthodox - (LOL - talk about multiple personalities) - but seriously, I'm Conservative with a pretty strong Orthodox bend. I think when I finally figure out exactly what I believe I will land on Orthodox (which will make my grandmother quite happy, my parents - not so much). My 3 debating girlfriends are Reform.
I hope you take my questions in the spirit in which they are intended - respectfully and with sincerity, not intending to create conflict or disharmony.
respectfully,
sarah
@Sarah: Let me field the "Lampo" question first. The Lampo Group, is aa company that was started by television and talk radio host Dave Ramsey. You can go to his Web site to learn more. Lampo is a for profit company whose sole purpose is to provide people hope when it comes their money, based on biblically based principles. Search Dave Ramsey for more info.
ReplyDeleteLet me tell you a little more about my religious background and that might give you a clearer picture of my response to the first part of your comment. I grew up in NC in a church of Christ. Technically speaking churches of Christ are autonomous and do not function as a denomination. However, for the most part, they all function very similar. You might be more familiar with Disciples of Christ which are predominantly located in the North. There was a split on several issues around the time of the US Civil War which led to DoC and cofC. I am still a part of the cofC even though I am planted in the middle of the Bible belt in TN now. I am not Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc... I am Christian, but that must take precedence over any denomination or group I choose to worship or associate with from a "church" perspective. I do encourage unity among denominations.
On to the heart of the matter. I can certainly see where Rabbi Lapin might be controversial. Regardless of whatever religion you are a part of, anyone who is vocal or a predominant figure in that faith will be viewed as controversial by someone. We have lots of "controversial" people within my own heritage.
As to the stereotypes. I am afraid the media has done the Jewish culture a great disservice by portraying Jews as money hungry, underhanded people who are only out to make a quick buck. They are often portrayed as tightwads and penny pincher's who are only out to serve fellow Jews and loan money to the poor and oppress them with interest.
As is the case with any stereotype, stereotypes usually rise from somewhere that gave credence to that particular stereotype. For example, many people will assume because I am part of the cofC, that we are the only people going to Heaven and that instrumental music in worship is wrong. Because outspoken people taught that once upon a time, and still do in some parts, it is a stereotype that will not easily go away.
I think Lapin showed that making money is an honorable thing. I saw where his message was one of service. He talked about serving people and serving people well. In response people bless you with certificates of appreciation (money). Therefore, you should not feel guilty for accepting money for hard work that you do. I never got the impression Lapin said the only reason you work is to make money. I heard him saying, serve people and you don't have to worry about the money.
Even in Christianity, and this could be a stereotype I suppose, there is this underlying thought that money is evil and as a Christian, having a lot of money is bad. Blah! Loving your money is bad, and that is the "root of all evil". So, it easy to see how Jews get a bad rap, particularly from Christians, because they understand what money represents. It represents something good that was accomplished.
Granted, money can be made through immoral ways, and there may be some dirty handed Jews, but I'll be the first to admit that there are a lot of crappy Christians too.
It's getting late, and I feel bad that my response is rushed, but I wanted to respond. I hope this helps.
Dear Ben,
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for your reply. I do appreciate your time. Thanks for clarifying what Lampo is and I have heard of Dave Ramsey - I've never heard him on the radio but have seen him on Fox before. And also I think I understand that your denomination is Cofc.
I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything...but what about the stereotype that Jews have money...
in your original post you specifically stated that the book breaks down stereotypes...you stated "the book breaks down stereotypes associated with business and Jews"...
In this response you named some specific stereotypes...
"money hungry
tightwads and penny pinchers
underhanded
only out to serve other jews"
So - basically - you are saying that this book does NOT reinforce these stereotypes, rather this book dis-spells these stereotypes.
What about the stereotype that all Jewish people have the money? For example, what would you say to someone that would argue - the entire book is based on something that could be considered detrimental to Jews...
What would you say to someone that says - the book basically says:
"Jewish people have money and this is why..."
Many people feel this is very bad for Jews, it reinforces the idea that all Jewish people are wealthy. It reinforces the idea that Jews actually control all the money.
Honestly, I really liked parts of the book. I really did. For me it was kind of strange because as I read it parts of it was so true it freaked me out a little.
At one point I actually stopped reading and put the book down so I could sit and think about my non-Jewish friends vs. me and my Jewish friends - and compare in a couple areas and even after trying I honestly could not say that some of the things Rabbi L talked about were not true. He really hit it right on a few things (disclaimer - I'm talking about MY experience and MY friends in MY life - )
So - I completely agree with him on some things - many things - and as far as the validity of what he is saying - much of it is true...BUT -
still - the premise of the book is that "Jews make money and have money and this is why..."-
and that is NOT true. I'm just middle class and make about the same as my non-Jewish friends. (Seriously, I do make almost the exact same amount of money as one christian friend in particular, yet she has loans and is in credit card debt. I do not necessarily see debt as terrible, just that it seems to be she is in a situation that is stressful. She doesn't seem very "stable". But - I don't make more money than her. There is only a $2000 a year between us. I just don't have more money than her. I just don't.)
So - with that said - do you think that this book reinforces the idea that Jews have more money than non-Jews? After reading the book do you think that Jews have money? Do you think Jews make more money? After all, isn't the book written because Jews know how to get money?
So - the one BIG stereotype that Jews are "prosperous" / has the money in the world / controls the money is somewhat reinforced?? Wouldn't you agree?
After reading the book, now do you look at your Jewish friends and think "I bet they are good in the area of money"?? After reading the book, when you see your Jewish friends do you think about their finances?
Because it's just not true. Jews just don't make more money. At least not us everyday, normal Jews.
So, I do agree the book does a good job of saying Jews are not just "doing business with other Jews" or that "Jews are selfish/underhanded" - but those truths are sitting on a foundation that Jews are wealthy and prosperous.
Seriously, I hope you come back with something brilliant. I think it is great that the book clarifies that Jews aren't underhanded tightwads that only serve other Jews - but doesn't it reinforce the FALSE idea that 1. individual Jews have more money than non-Jews and 2. globally, groups of Jews and Jewish companies/organizations have more money than non-Jewish companies and organizations?
And now, when you a Jewish person are you more or less likely to wonder about their financial situation?
Respectfully,
sarah
Sarah: I appreciate the questions. They are great and help me to get even more value out of the book. You also commented on the other post so let me answer your question "Do I know any Jewish friends?" Honestly, no. There is not a large population of Jewish people here in Nashville, but there are a lot of wealthy people. In fact I live in one of the wealthiest counties in America (I don't know how that is determined because I am not one of the wealthiest people in America). Here's the kicker...most of them aren't Jewish. :) Ha ha.
ReplyDeleteI do work with a gentleman whose wife is a Jew. She is also a Christian. In fact they are in Israel right now ministering to others, particularly in regards to handling money. Ironic huh? A Christian man and his Jewish wife teaching Jewish people how to handle money in Israel. How interesting when you think about that in the context of this discussion.
When I do meet Jewish people, I do not think of them as "rich". I didn't feel like the book reinforced the stereotype that ALL Jewish people are wealthy. Anyone with a brain will know that's not true, as you gave a great example of comparing you and your friend. I will give you that all stereotypes contain SOME truth to them. For example, I have a good buddy who is black and he is proof that not all black men are athletic.
You see, if I were to say that every time I met a Jewish person and assumed they were wealthy, I would have to also assume that every time I met a Hispanic that he was an illegal alien. If I met a teenage girl who was pregnant that she was promiscuous. If I met someone from San Fransisco, he was gay. If I met someone from China, she escaped a sweat shop. Someone from Kenya, can run long distances really fast. Catholics have lots of children....
Stereotypes simply aren't true of everyone, but that's not to say they aren't true of someone and usually that someone has played a major role in creating that stereotype.
Now, to be fair, I would say that stereotypes do play a role when you meet someone and in the list that I gave above, I'd be lying if I didn't say stereotypes cross my mind when I meet someone. I think Malcolm Gladwell in his book Blink! explains this remarkably well. It's natural for humans to do it based on our experiences.
So, since I don't have many Jewish friends, none of which are wealthy, I am less likely to even think money when I think Jew. Frankly, as a Christian growing up in the south, I am more likely to think, "this Jewish person probably doesn't like me because I believe Jesus is the Messiah." (Although, I don't really think that).
So even though I get what you are saying, and yes I think you could be right and some people could use this to reinforce Jewish stereotypes, it did not do that for me. When I heard the way Lapin addressed scripture in the book, it was refreshing to me. I think Christians have lost a lot of meaning from the Torah, because of the importance they place upon the New Testament.
From my perspective, I think Lapin explained how the stereotypes were created and influenced but I don't think he reinforced them. If anything, I think he showed me that people don't have to be Jewish to be wealthy - something I already knew BTW :).
One more thing. It's interesting about you saying that Jewish companies/organizations have more money than non Jewish groups. I don't know, but if it were/is true, it would not surprise me because of the integrity and honor Jews have and how they wish to help everyone, including non Jews. As a result, they prosper.
You see, I have been plagued with the opposite stereotype. Because I work for a Christian organization, people naturally see us as Bible beaters and poor business minds. Then the fact that we are "for-profit" many people assume we are greedy and love money more than God. Christians have a bad reputation of running crappy businesses, and you know what, a lot of them are crappy. But not all.
I think Lapin helps bridge a gap between stereotypical Jewish and Christian concepts of money.
We both live with stereotypes that we would like not to exist. But spending our time trying to eliminate them is a battle we will never win. We can only live each of our own lives the best we can and try to keep the stereotypes that do exist, from defining who we really are.
It's not brilliant...but I hope it helps.
Dear Ben – thank you so much for indulging me and my questions. I think you are a good guy and I appreciate your openness. Thank you very much for your honesty. I just want to say a couple things and then I'll leave you alone.
ReplyDeleteBasically, I do like the book, but I am in the minority among my friends (Jews). Also, even though I like the book I would not recommend it.
I really want to say – I personally like Rabbi Lapin – I really do. I've looked around your blog and see that you read a lot and that you seem to read primarily business books. But did you realize that Rabbi Lapin wrote a book “America's Real War”? I love that book – may I suggest you consider reading it? I have so many great things I could say about the book that I couldn't begin to tell you why I recommend it because I would fear I would leave something out. I really LOVE Rabbi Lapin's ARW, he is a favorite – he really is. There are very clear theological differences between Jews and Christians, but in many things we agree and it is because you (Christians) include our (Jewish) Bible in your Bible. I feel like Rabbi L does a really great job of bringing Jew and Christian together in his “America's Real War”. But not so much in his “Thou shall prosper”. But I guess that's because it wasn't his intent.
I work for a large company but in my particular office there are only a few of us and I am the only Jew. I can honestly say that I see differences in our work habits and in what I consider ethical behavior and not. Good, bad, or whatever, I think “thou shall prosper” holds true for much of what I believe/behavior for myself and it is in contrast to those of my co-workers. I didn't realize what I would be reading so when I did read it I was surprised by how true it seemed to me. I guess I was reading it and thought that really the things I read would be true for Jew and non-Jew(because Christians have the Torah in your bible - I thought we weren't that different) and I was shocked a little when I realized that in fact, there does seem to be some differences that I can see (and have seen) but never was able to quite put my finger on it. (granted, this is my first “professional” job, as I just got my degree last spring, I don't have a vast amount of experience other than working full time summers and part-time during school). But I was shocked when I read his book. I use the word “shocked” because I just can't believe how true the things he writes are, how much it does describe me perfectly, and how I have noticed that my co-workers are not like that at all. Not trying to sound judgmental but I really believe our work ethic is very different. (Again, I'm talking about me, sarah, in my particular job...I know I can't say that all non-Jews have less than honorable work ethics. Although I will say, in talking with my Jewish friends, they have similar experiences.)
But I can't say that I would recommend this book to them because they already make fun of me for using coupons on our weekly “Wednesday Girls Lunch” outings...no matter how much they smile and act like they are joking I think they probably do see me as a “money-hungry, tightwad Jew”. But really I'm not – I'm just a girl that wants to save some money, I want to buy a house and one day get married and have kids and yada yada yada – you know, the American dream and all that.
With that said, I can't help but cringe when I think of “thou shall prosper” because it puts a spotlight on some differences between Jews and non-Jews that I know (again, my limited experience, yada, yada). And actually, when you think about it, it doesn't make sense because you (Christians) have the Jewish Bible in your Christian Bible so how is it that Jews and Christians have such different ways of handling business/money/professional ethics? Or maybe they don't. - which brings me to my point – and you touched on it when you said that “I think Christians have lost a lot of meaning from the Torah, because of the importance they place upon the New Testament.” And you also said that you thought he bridged a gap between Jew and Christian but I don't think so – I think he could have done a LOT better...
I think that Rabbi L could have done a great book if he had approached it something like....what we have in common – like -
“Leviticus xx:xx says “such and such” and therefore Jews have “this and that” as a professional ethic” or “Deuteronomy xx:xx says “this” and therefore a Biblical money principal is “that”.
Why couldn't he have written a book about what Jews and Christians have in common about business/money? Is it because they have such differing beliefs? Christians have our Bible – don't you tithe? That was Commandment # 9 in his book. Wouldn't you say that we (Christian and Jew - Ben and sarah -both) share the truths presented? You mentioned “I think Christians have lost a lot of meaning from the Torah, because of the importance they place upon the New Testament.” - so in the example of tithing are you saying that they(you, or Chrsitians) maybe have lost the part of the Torah about tithing?
I guess I'm saying that in his book each of the commandments is about Jewish culture/attitudes that are based on the Torah – why not cite the Torah and explain how each of the principals are based on scriptures and in so doing he would be pointing out how Christians share those particular truths of G-d? Could he have not gotten his lesson out and presented the information in this way? Instead of saying “jews believe xxx he could have said judeo-christian values are xxx)
Instead he wrote the book and said “Jews are prosperous and this is why...”
This is something that someone said and I think it speaks to the idea of why it makes some people uncomfortable...it's a book BY a Rabbi ABOUT us (Jews) instead of TO us (Jews). Rabbi's usually write books TO JEWS FOR JEWS not ABOUT JEWS. I think at least in my little circle that is what seems to be upsetting to people...my “fussy friends” can't point to something specific that he writes that is untrue. I think it is a general “he should not have written it” rather than a “he is writing something that is not true”
Someone also made the point “ I think “thou shall prosper” is a “fun” read, but for more concise instructions I would turn to other books written - “
(Like “Kosher Money” by Rabbi Schwartz or “Jewish Business Ethics” (Levine) or “Moral Issues of the Marketplace in Jewish Law” (by Rabbi Dr. Aaron Levine) – those are written TO us for us) “
Again – they cannot tell me something they specifically disagree about.
For the record, I do like the book. Would I recommend it to my Christian friends? I don't think so. Not because the information isn't good, rather because it feels more like the underlying implication (and sometimes explicitly ) is that Jews are better with business/money than they (Christian friends) are.
While your response was brilliant - *smile * and it was brilliant – it wasn't brilliant enough. Because the fact remains that you are sitting there reading a book about Jewish people and why they are successful financially. And after you've read the book, you have just read 350 pages that reinforce the introduction where Rabbi L documents that Jews are disproportionately successful/wealthy - Jews make up 2 percent of the American population but 25% of the Forbes 400 and that even among the common population a Jewish household is twice as likely to make above $50,000 as a non-Jewish one (Page 10).
Remember what Hitler said about Jews and money?
anyway...
But thank you for your response and sincerity.
And I must go, or I will be late for temple...btw – I agree with you about Ben Stein and his documentary
and
also - regarding your comment when you meet a Jewish person – no, we are not thinking that we don't like you because you we would be thinking "this Jewish person probably doesn't like me because I believe Jesus is the Messiah." - that is SOOOO wrong – we are thinking one of two things -
1. “oh no, watch out he's going to try to convert me”
or -
if you are from the south -
2.“oh no, watch out – he thinks I'm a money-hungry tightwad Jew that killed his god and now he wants to lynch me”
just kidding
(sort of)
* wink *
:)
best wishes to you.
respectfully,
sarah
A couple of quick notes...and maybe I'll say more later when I have more time.
ReplyDelete1. The way you ended that last comment had me rolling on the floor. Hilarious!
2. I was in NY this weekend and I saw several Jewish people. None of which seemed to be wealthy by appearance. I thought of this conversation several times.
3. I was at a conference that was located at the Museum of Jewish Heritage. WOW! It was remarkable, and it had an extraordinary effect on me.
4. I think Lapin will be at our company in the next few weeks to speak. Is there anything I should ask him, if I have the opportunity?
5. I think your arguments are solid. Your point about Lapin writing a book written about Jews explaining why Jews are richer than most anyone else is good. Like I said, stereotypes are often true, (not always) that is how they become a stereotype.
Also, about your office making fun of you for using coupons. Well, that has nothing to do with you being Jewish. Some people may make it that way, but I get the same thing because I work for Dave Ramsey. People think we are penny pinchers who can't have any fun because we won't spend any money. We just budget our fun...that's all.
6. It seems now we are moving into some theological discussions which is great. Christians view tithing in a lot of different ways. Some do tithe because of what it says in the Torah, but many see tithing as Jewish 'tax'. It's something that comes with being Jewish and as a good and proper Jew, you should tithe. Christians, take on the view that God doesn't need our money, but you should give cheerfully based on Jesus' conversation with a widow who gave all she had. Money given out of obligation is not seen as an acceptable offering to God (ironicially, few Christians give 10% or more).
When I say Lapin bridges the gap, I say it in reference to the way we see money and business. There are a lot of wealthy people who happen to be Jews. So if a Christian wants to be better with money and make more, then reading Jewish material is a good resource. If I wanted to start a cattle company, I might ask someone who lives in Texas. Not all Texans are cattle drivers, but I bet most of them know something or someone who does. Stereotype? Yep. Sorry. I guess it's a part of life and we all have to overcome them.
Also, as far as how Christian view the Torah, we value it a great deal. It give a lot of history and background to why Jesus was such a radical in his day. However, we tend to give more time and focus on studying the New T. rather than the Old T because the teaching of Jesus and what we believe happened with his death puts aside much of OT law. What I should have said is that Lapin's interpretation of the OT stories are more profound than Christians. The Jewish heritage has preserved their approach or interpretation of scripture differently than Christians. In the few references he made to scripture, he drew out points that were refreshing, even though they may have been minor in terms of theology. He just showed me a different perspective. That's all.
Oh...about work ethic. I would say, that it's not just that you are a Jew, but that doesn't hurt. I would say our office (full of Christians) has a remarkable work ethic too. I think it boils down to ethics and integrity and belonging to something larger. We do have differences, but there is no question we believe in the same God.
Thanks again for the discussion.
Ben,
ReplyDeleteI'm so impressed - you get to have Rabbi L at your work???
Well, actually, I'm not impressed, I'm jealous.
I would get a copy of America's Real War and have him sign it.
I don't know what you should ask him, I know I would ask him all kinds of questions, but of course my questions would not make sense coming from you since we are two VERY different people.
But...
I would love to meet him. He's a good guy.
Also- if you watch rabbi l's videos on his lifecodex channel on youtube, under the "description" or somewhere there is a code you can use to get a discount when you order from his web site. I can't remember what it is now, but it is for like ?? 10% off or something. He has other resources than books - so if you wanted to get them I would use the discount code.
btw - you said that Dave Ramsey had him on his tv show...is there a copy of that posted somewhere? I would love to see it.
I've been looking around DaveRamsey.com , there seems to be a lot going on with you guys.
Anyway, I'm going to start listening to him on Fox at 8:00 - I've tuned in a couple times.
I like him and he seems like a great guy helping people, but I'm not in debt so I don't know that I really get that much from it. You know? He focuses on getting out of debt and if you aren't in debt it doesn't really apply. But he does have interesting information woven into some of his answers.
But now I want to come work for him since he's got Rabbi L coming...I'm finding myself fascinated with your company...I must learn more about this...
blessings,
sarah
My brother recently turned me on to Dave Ramsey. When he asked me what I'd like for my birthday, I emailed him that I'd like 'Thou Shall Prosper'. I googled it quickly to make sure I had the title correct and stumbled upon 'Pet Peeving'. I read through the comments and am even more excited to read it now. My husband and I have been buried in debt for our entire marriage and thanks to Dave and his teachings are working our way out of it. It appears that Rabbi Lapin will help us too. We've thrown money around that we haven't had around for years. Loved the questions and answers between you and Sarah and just wanted to say thanks. Another Sarah
ReplyDelete@Sarah #2: I think you are going to love the book. It took me awhile to get through it, but if you'll keep notes as you go, I think it will help you grow tremendously. It's all about the mindset you choose to live with. This book helps you think "rich" in a positive way.
ReplyDeleteGood luck with Dave's baby steps!
Rabbi Lapin. On your TV interview that was aired on the 28th November. 2008 You let a wonderful oppertunity slip through your fingers. revealing a gap in your theology. The Sabbath is the seventh day not as you kept saying a sabbath ie. u even left the impression that Sundayt was OK.
ReplyDeleteAs a Rabbi I would of thought u would have known that, or have you also like the rest compromised on the word of God. Makes you think??
We are also told exactly why we have to honer the seventh day.
Mickey
huh?
ReplyDelete